In this episode we have a very enlightening conversation with Mark Raffan, a procurement specialist who's not afraid to share secrets from the other side of the table. You will take away wisdom on identifying personal weaknesses, strengthening negotiation skills, and more from Mark's book, "Nine Secrets to Win Deals and Influence Stakeholders." We sift through the elements of successful negotiation, from planning and strategy to the subtle art of persuasion, and we don't shy away from the tough questions.
We also highlight the importance of reading multiple books on the subject to expand the critical aspect of negotiation strategy versus tactics and explore key milestones that can guide a smoother negotiation process and how embracing these landmarks can make the experience less daunting for all parties involved.
The world of AI is changing B2B sales negotiations. We discuss the intersection of AI and negotiations, revealing how these technologies are changing the business landscape. From AI bots tackling simpler deals to potentially assisting in complex transactions, we offer a glimpse into the future of negotiations.
In this episode we have a very enlightening conversation with Mark Raffan, a procurement specialist who's not afraid to share secrets from the other side of the table. You will take away wisdom on identifying personal weaknesses, strengthening negotiation skills, and more from Mark's book, "Nine Secrets to Win Deals and Influence Stakeholders." We sift through the elements of successful negotiation, from planning and strategy to the subtle art of persuasion, and we don't shy away from the tough questions.
We also highlight the importance of reading multiple books on the subject to expand the critical aspect of negotiation strategy versus tactics and explore key milestones that can guide a smoother negotiation process and how embracing these landmarks can make the experience less daunting for all parties involved.
The world of AI is changing B2B sales negotiations. We discuss the intersection of AI and negotiations, revealing how these technologies are changing the business landscape. From AI bots tackling simpler deals to potentially assisting in complex transactions, we offer a glimpse into the future of negotiations.
Welcome to Social Selling 2.0 Live Show and Podcast, where each week, we explore the future of B2B sales. Social has changed the B2B and professional services landscape forever. Capturing and keeping buyer attention has never been more challenging. Our mission is to help you discover new strategies, new technologies, new go-to-market systems and stay up-to-date with what is working now in B2B sales. Your hosts are Carson Hedy, the number one social seller at Microsoft, tom Burton, a best-selling author and B2B sales specialist, and Brandon Lee, an entrepreneur with multiple seven and eight figure exits and a leading voice in LinkedIn social selling Brandon and Tom also leads social selling 2.0 solutions, which offers turnkey consulting, coaching and training to B2B sales leaders. Now let's start the show.
Speaker 2:Everybody welcome to episode number 61, social Selling 2.0. Tom Burton, with my amazing co-host Brandon Lee and Carson Hedy, and another amazing guest this week, mark Roffin. Mark welcome.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it. Look at that book, I know the guy that wrote that book.
Speaker 2:What's that book from?
Speaker 3:I don't know Some schmuck.
Speaker 4:Brandon Brandon book. I just wanted to get a book club.
Speaker 5:I just wanted to show you what.
Speaker 4:I was reading.
Speaker 5:It's going to be one of those shows I see.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:We're not even a full minute into it. We're already down that path.
Speaker 2:Well, it's because Carson's back.
Speaker 4:Carson, we're glad to have you back. I'm telling a dad joke, I bet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, are you still at that level?
Speaker 4:yet.
Speaker 2:Did he have a?
Speaker 5:good thing to get there. I've actually had a few messages from people saying hey, so what happened to the dad jokes? They said really.
Speaker 4:They were voted off the island.
Speaker 5:You want more of that.
Speaker 4:Maybe you could put that in the community, Brandon. You could post one every week and keep people entertained, but we don't cram it into the show.
Speaker 5:There you go.
Speaker 2:So we're going to be talking about something today that I don't know that we've ever talked about in 61 episodes, which is negotiations and how to be a good negotiator. So, Mark, start off by telling us a little bit about your background, how you got into this whole world of negotiations in your book, and then we're going to dive in on some, I think, some pretty intriguing questions. And also sorry, Mark, before you start, if you're online, because we've had trouble with this the last few weeks is getting people connected. If you're online, please let us know you're here. Happy Thanksgiving to everybody, and so at least we can make sure that these comments are working properly, but anyway, all right, Mark.
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, thank you and congratulations for 61 episodes. That's quite an accomplishment 61 of anything is a big deal, so that's a huge thing. My background.
Speaker 4:I remember when 61 home runs used to be a big deal.
Speaker 3:Right and now it's like a nothing. Yeah, my background is all procurement actually, so I come from the other side of the conversation. So when you have legends of sales on your show talking all about things from the sales perspective, I speak about things from the procurement perspective, and that's where the vast majority of my career is, and that's why I decided to write Nine Secrets to Win Deals and Influence Stakeholders, because there is so much negotiation information out there from a sales perspective that I wanted to write something from a procurement perspective, but to salespeople. So salespeople, if you're listening in right now, if you want a different idea of how to approach negotiation, this is the book to be able to pick up and go. Do that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and you know, what's cool about it too is the way that Mark maps out the grid and the strategy and the planning and how you can, in essence, map your own blueprint to negotiation, based on how it's done from that side of the table. It's brilliantly written.
Speaker 3:Thank you, man. It took us a long time to be able to get through and a lot of revisions and a lot of editing, but it turned out to be a good read, I think, and I think the feedback that I've gotten from a few people is Mark, we appreciate how easy of a read this is to some people three hours on a flight to be able to burn through and that's exactly the way that we intended the book to be, something that was sort of a quick reference guide, a field guide which is the whole purpose of the book that people can reference over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:Well, it looks like, mark, you've got some fans already. So, yeah, thank you. Welcome to Brown and Reed and Kev and Paige and Harold and Butch and everybody here, and we have a LinkedIn user that's anonymously saying you're a rock star too.
Speaker 4:So yeah, that's nice, and I just want to say Kev Carter, one of the greatest salesmen of all time, who's hats off? We need to get him on the show, but anyway, come on.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, let's start digging in. So, Mark, let's kind of start from the top, I guess. What does it mean to be a good negotiator or a great negotiator? What's involved? What are the elements of it?
Speaker 3:I think in order to be a great negotiator, you need to recognize that you're not a great negotiator. Probably is the first step, and I think that's the first step to anything. When you want to get good at something. There needs to be a moment of clarity and a moment of humility to say, hey, I'm not great at this, I need to improve at this and I'm going to do everything that I can to be able to improve at this. And the one piece of advice that I give to everyone when they start on sort of the negotiation improvement journey, wherever they're starting off from, is, while I'm here to obviously talk about my way to do something. It is not the way to do something and that's really important for everyone to understand. It is a way to do something, it's not the way to do something. So what I want everyone to start thinking about is don't just read one single book on negotiation and feel like you've gotten a full education on it. Read a bunch of different books on negotiation. It would be like reading one book on sales and saying, oh, I've got a great education on sales. That's impossible. It's not a thing. You're going to have to read a ton to be able to improve. Start with my book Lovely, fantastic. Please do that, but also read a bunch of other books as well.
Speaker 3:There's a bunch of amazing authors out there, and in order to be great at negotiation, there's two big segments that I want you to start thinking about. Number one is negotiation strategy and number two is negotiation tactics, and those are two very different things. People think they are the same. They are not the same, and oftentimes, when people talk about negotiation, what they're actually talking about is what they see on movies or TV shows, which is negotiation tactics, where some salesman hops on a phone call and seemingly creates a deal out of what appears to be thin air, just out of nowhere, with some fancy words or a script that's really well practiced, and then suddenly something comes together and there's this $100 million deal that comes together. The reality is, negotiation is actually far more boring than that. It's much more about strategy than it is about tactics, but you've got to be able to learn both.
Speaker 4:Deals coming out of thin air is pure rubbish. Yes, I think the reality of the matter is. That's why they don't show real sales on television and movies, because the reality is there's a lot of elements of it that isn't sexy. And at the heart of negotiation, everybody's got to win, there's got to be give-get and you've got to get people to a place where everybody feels like they walked away with a win and that their boss is going to pat them on the back or it's going to lead to some outcome or there is a level of de-risk. You've got to have a mutually beneficial agreement and that's why at the heart of negotiation is a lot of the things that don't necessarily play well in a movie script, like listening and being empathetic to what those needs might be on the other side of the table Getting creative.
Speaker 4:I will tell you the great deals that I've done in my career. We've gotten very, very creative, but we've listened to our customer and we've met those needs in creative ways. Or willingness to go up very, very high in my organization, some of your negotiation is not necessarily with procurement or with the customer. It's also inside. I do a lot of selling internally within my own organization and you've got to be able to pivot as well. Some of the biggest deals that I've done over time executives, the players have even changed or they've completely changed course of what they do, and I think that's why it's so important to be able to pivot and really listen and sit in the situation with your target customer.
Speaker 2:No, I have a question. I wanted to and this may go to all three of you when you kind of brought it up, mark, you see in the movie right around the negotiation, I think a lot of people think the negotiation is OK, I'm seen down and I'm deciding on the contract or the money. But I would suspect that negotiation starts way earlier in the sales process in terms of setting the right foundation and putting the right things in place. What is a salesperson? When I'm doing social selling, not doing social selling? How should I be going into this and kind of looking at that negotiation as something that I'm doing earlier, or at least thinking about earlier than later? Am I looking at it the right way? Because I don't think it's just something you do at the end.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would tend to agree with you and maybe to get a little bit sticky, I would use the term persuasion. I think persuasion is used at various parts of the funnel. Negotiation is something that we classify as happening at the bottom of the funnel. So in prospecting and discovery and all of those things, there is a certain amount of persuasion, there's a certain amount of influence. But when we're talking negotiation specifically from our perspective, we're primarily talking about the negotiation of the deal itself. The terms and conditions, the contrastual things, the commercial terms. All those kinds of things is specifically what we refer to when we talk about negotiation. There is components of negotiation, like the persuasion and the influence, in other parts of the funnel, but when we think of negotiation we're thinking about bottom of funnel activities Interesting.
Speaker 4:I think you're always arming yourself. You mentioned social selling in that time and I would just say briefly, you're always arming yourself with what's available and as time goes by, you're going to uncover more and more information that's going to inform ultimately your actions and how you show up. You can make an educated guess on what's going to resonate with a customer executive or with procurement and perhaps what has worked before. And, as I always like to say, I mean you've got the little snowball that eventually becomes the avalanche and eventually, over a career, you're going to act based on and you're going to see around corners more effectively, based on the experience and maybe even the missteps that you've made before. Maybe you showed up for the negotiation ill-prepared or you negotiated a bad deal. You will learn ideally from all of those things. That's why I'm not really all that smarter, effective at sales. I've just been around too long.
Speaker 5:Yeah, mark, I think from my background I've always focused probably I mean right or wrong. I focus more on what you were calling is more the persuasion along the way before we got to the negotiation stage, as you put it. What are some of the key milestones that we should be looking for, whether it's at the beginning or all the way through? Are there some key milestones that we should be thinking about that are going to greatly make the negotiation phase that much easier or simpler for not just us but everybody involved?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting that we're having this conversation because I was having another similar conversation with someone the other day around milestones, and the big milestone we picked up on and talked about was look, the fact that you've made it to the negotiation means they want to do a deal with you. Sure, if you didn't make it to the point where you're actually trying to put a deal together, they didn't want to do a deal with you in the first place. So that you're there is a really good sign. It's a really great milestone.
Speaker 3:Getting there is the hard part in sales right, it's full of persuasion and discovery and just making sure you've gathered all information from different stakeholders, making sure you've gotten commitments from everyone to get to that point. But when you're there, the likelihood of that going poorly unless you really really screw it up, is very minimal. The key is how are you going to maximize the value from that conversation to be able to drive more value than you've already built and also protect value, so that when someone who is maybe a steel-hearted negotiator or someone on the other side who is there to be able to drive value for their organization, comes onto the phone with you, how do you ensure that you're protecting that value along the way. That's really what I think people need to consider when they go into negotiations is not only value creation but value protection.
Speaker 3:What I see from a lot of salespeople from a procurement perspective is salespeople are brilliant at building value throughout the sale, but as soon as they get to the commercial negotiation, all of that seems to somehow fall out of the window and they lose so much value at the negotiation stage. Going into 2024, that's my big concern because we're seeing a lot of shifts in a lot of different industries. A lot of things are slowing down for a lot of folks and if they don't know how to protect value at the negotiation stage, they're going to lose a lot of profitability, they're going to lose a lot of ground on legal terms and conditions and they're going to end up with pretty poor deals if they don't know how to do it properly.
Speaker 2:Mark. What would be an example of them losing value as they get into negotiation? What would be an example of that?
Speaker 3:Easy one is concessions right away. From our perspective, we see salespeople as such givers in the negotiation and such people pleasers in the negotiation that they want to do what's best for their customer. That's amazing. That's an amazing personal quality to have.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately, that gets taken advantage of at the commercial negotiation stage. When someone asks a salesperson for a concession, the salesperson just goes, sure, yeah, I think we can do that, because they're afraid that they're either going to lose the deal or offend someone or be seen as greedy, whatever the fear is that's associated with it. Then what inevitably ends up happening is you just give the concession and the procurement person on the other end goes okay, I'll just keep asking, I guess. Then they keep asking and the salesperson keeps giving until they're so bled dry from the negotiation that they get frustrated and angry and they're like we can't do anymore. It's only then that the procurement person goes, oh, okay, and moves on from the conversation. If you were able to just manage your concessions and ask for something back in return for the concessions that you're giving away, you would be able to protect value in a much more fundamentally easy and constructive way.
Speaker 4:It's also really important to think about what is the potential strategy for the other side of the table If you're negotiating a deal. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that piece, mark, because I remember look, I've seen a lot of negotiation styles over the years. I remember the craziest one that I saw once was just these asinine asks that were being made, that were ludicrous, I mean things that there was no way I could possibly ever deliver in a million years, no matter if I even called my CEO. And so I remember, literally one day I was listening to the Chris Voss podcast all day like what nuggets can I pull out of this to find the style and figure out how to match it and almost combat it.
Speaker 4:But it's like the gambler You've got to know when to walk away, know when to run. I think one of the key elements is really being able to anticipate the style, but knowing that even after you present a lot of times, there's always going to be that one final barrier. You need to know what is the step by which this is going to go to the board, what is the step by which their C-level, their CFO, is going to step in and ask for one more discount or whatever it is. It's like you've got to anticipate these moves. How do you mark a tune to the strategy of the person on the other side of the table?
Speaker 3:This is why and I'm going to say something fairly controversial here, because a lot of people don't like to hear this this is why I don't necessarily believe in the concept of win-win negotiation, because not everyone approaches negotiation with that sort of mindset in mind. I would love for everyone to be collaborative and giving and looking for what's best for each other throughout the negotiation, but there are certain parts of the negotiation where you have to be prepared for someone who makes those asinine requests. By the way, that is a tactic that's called a door-in-the-face tactic, which is opposite to foot-in-the-door. It basically is the idea of making this high commitment request, which we know is going to get rejected, but then making a lower commitment request, which is actually the action that you want the person to take. I say, hey, can you do this? You say no, absolutely not. That's outrageous. I say, well, what about? This thing On the surface seems like so much less than what I've already asked for that you immediately start thinking to yourself well, that's a much more reasonable request. Now I've gotten you to commit to something that is much less than the thing that I originally asked you to think about, which was way bigger than you could. You're going to meet people like this, who may not be negotiating rationally, they may not be negotiating in good faith, they may not be negotiating in a certain way. You've got to be prepared for that in those kinds of circumstances. Also, you've got to be prepared for the opposite of those things too.
Speaker 3:We see negotiation as a spectrum. On the one side, we've got the collaborative win-win Harvard program on negotiation style. On the other side, we've got the start, with no gym camp style negotiation. We're in the middle when it comes to negotiation. We try and take from a number of different aspects. We're big believers that you've got to be able to operate across the entire spectrum when it comes to negotiation. I would just caution those folks that are listening in right now to not just think that because win-win is the biggest thing that you've heard about in negotiation, because it was the most popular thing for a long time. It doesn't mean that's the only way to do something and it doesn't mean that's the only strategy in negotiation. This is why I said at the beginning of the negotiation conversation we're having read broadly on the topic because there are so many different ideas on how to approach things.
Speaker 4:It's a super important delineation that you just made, because even if we go into it thinking we want win-win, that's always going to be the reality.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, exactly, it's important just to be able to say, okay, I guess we're not going to go that direction, that's okay, that's a normal thing. You're going to have to have negotiations like that. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking that everyone's going to be rational and reasonable with you. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that everyone's searching for a win-win, because they're certainly not. They could be on the far extreme of the negotiation spectrum. In the 80s, there was PICO's negotiation styles that came out of the automotive industry that were really just about bleeding you dry. They didn't care about you. They only cared about the savings that could be generated from the negotiation. If you look at it from that perspective, you've got Harvard on one side and PICO's on the other side, and there's a bunch of different styles in between.
Speaker 4:I've definitely had my fair share of deals where both sides walked away licking their wounds and feeling dirty. That happens, Brandon. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's interesting with our audience and even just the three of us on the call with you or on the show with you, mark Carson. Nine and 10 figure deals with enterprise companies. I've never sold that, but a lot of times for me it's one to one or one to maybe two or two to two. That's really enlightening and very interesting. I think our tendency tends to be we go into a negotiation expecting, thinking that the other person is going to have the same approach to negotiation as we are, which is not accurate. Because of that, what's the safest or best tactic? If somebody asks for a concession, right, if we're not prepared, our answer would be like oh okay, or let me think about it, or let me ask what's a better way of doing, like of a response.
Speaker 5:I just say it as a topic, but not one that was pushed one way or the other. Does that say no?
Speaker 3:Yes, say no. I mean, if you're not prepared, say no. That's the single most important thing that I can tell people to do. If someone's asking you for something and it's a concession Request and you're not able to prepare that, your first response shouldn't be oh, I think I might be able to do that, or maybe I can do that. The first response is I don't think I can do that.
Speaker 3:Here's why that should be your first response, because we're not just about managing the Negotiation itself with concessions. We're also trying to manage the perception of the scarcity of the thing that the person is asking for. If you you immediately believe that what I can give you is readily available, then you value that thing less because you don't believe that thing is skinned Right like kind of like diamonds. We all Somehow believe that diamonds are scarce. They are not scarce, but diamond miners have done a phenomenal job and marketing agencies have done a phenomenal job of Making us believe that diamonds are rare and scarce and these amazing jewels, and because they're rare and scarce, you should give a third of your income to us to buy these things. And that's just not true.
Speaker 3:Diamonds are not rare and they're not scarce, but because of our perception. We believe that they are and, as such, we place more emphasis on that. We think it's higher value and we're willing to part with more money to be able to achieve that. The same thing is true for concessions. All we're doing is trying to manage your perception of supply and demand. So when you ask me for something, the first thing I'm gonna say to you isn't oh, maybe I can do that. The first thing I'm gonna say is I'm not sure I can do that, or I I don't think I can do that. Why? Because I'm trying to manage your perception of scarcity and put the burden of proof on them, right.
Speaker 4:But look, we're in a relationship building game and ultimately you want to earn the trust of the person on the other side of the table. So I mean, that's a great response. Or you can say something along the lines of Help me, help me build that case. If I'm gonna make an ask internally, you know you need to help me craft what that ask is gonna look like. Where is this gonna go, where is this relationship gonna go together? What's possible and a lot of the value that I could bring my customers as I can help demystify the resources that I can bring to bear. So, hey, if we do this, I might be able to unlock this. That's how the art of negotiation happens, ultimately.
Speaker 4:I've had some great deals where I understood where they needed to be. I understood the tangibles that they needed in the deal, I understood the number that they needed to be at and I met them very close to that. But what? I made sure that the deal was constructed with things that were going to get my team paid, and so that's the key element. If I'm gonna make an ask internally and I'm gonna put my neck on the line to go ask for this discount. You better believe you got to help me craft that ask and it's. I've got to be very prepared to answer to my Superiors who are gonna question the heck out of this. So tell me, where are we going together?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, brandon, maybe to answer your question a different way is that's if you're not prepared. If you have are prepared, the answer is still gonna be the same, but the follow-up is gonna be different, right? Because they're gonna keep asking. They're gonna say, well, right, I can eat something here. Mark, you're not really helping me with a concession, right? We need to be able to move this deal forward.
Speaker 3:Then you can start getting into Portional giving and conditional giving. So portional giving that's a made-up word. I'm not saying Proportional giving. I'm saying you give a portion of something to someone and then you make it conditional on getting something in return For that thing. So if Carson asks me for a 20% discount on something, I'm gonna first say I'm not sure I can do that. Carson's gonna ask again and then I'm gonna say, look, carson, I think I might be able to get part of that, maybe I can do 3%. But if I can do, 3% I need. And then I'm gonna ask for something in return For that 3% and I'm gonna make sure that I get commitment from Carson on the thing that he gives to me before I make the commitment to Give to Carson.
Speaker 5:Hey, mark, where is where is asking, why is something important from somebody across the table for you? Where does that play into it to understand their perception or their need?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, look, that needs to be part of the narrative as well. So understanding why that thing is important to them is gonna be really important to ask. Sometimes it's more simple than that, right? So some for example, if it's a schedule change, if it's a scope change, those kinds of things that's where you start saying, okay, there's a reason behind this. This makes sense. But if you're dealing with a procurement person that's asking for a discount, we know what the reason is. So there's no real reason to ask that follow-up like why is this important to you? Because the procurement person is gonna say Because I want a better deal. Dude, that's what they're gonna say to you. So now you're just gonna have to get into the tactical part of that negotiation. You know, I want a kid, I want to.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, brandon, that's right, go ahead. No, I just wanted to connect the dot on it dots on a couple things here that we're talking, because you started off, you know, mark, you were talking about value, right, not giving up your value, and it seems to me that you know this and I think, brandon, this is a really smart tactic, right, we all create proposals or we create whatever business. We're in a proposal or a statement of work or something that we're trying to get signed and agreed on. If you look at that statement of work or that proposal and you kind of identify All the things in there that potentially somebody could ask for a concession on whether I mean it doesn't have to just be price, it could be no, I don't want to and you think about those as your diamonds, like you talked about.
Speaker 2:What are all your value nuggets that you have in that proposal, and then make sure you really understand, as the salesperson, the value of those, because I've seen a lot of times where the sales per, well, that's just our price list or that's our price, that's how we price thing, but they don't really understand the value of the, of the piece that was in there and I think is maybe a prep. Tell me if this seems like a good strategy. But if I'm a salesperson, make sure I really understand my diamonds, my value things and know that they could likely be someone may want to pluck them away as a concession, but understand the value that I have so that when I say no I do that with confidence and certainty.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, look, if you don't understand what it is you're negotiating for and you don't understand the value of what it is you have, then you're going to ask for something back that may be of a significantly lesser value. So a key example is like look, if you ask me for a massive discount on a high value contract and I say, well, can we move the payment terms from net 45 to net 30 and the value of that is Significantly less than the discount that you're asking me for, then I'm still at a trade deficit, right, like that doesn't make sense for the trade on that deal. So I've got to ask for Significantly more than that when I asked for that concession in return to make sure that I'm getting an even trade. Like. The analogy that I gave to someone the other day was if you ever Collected baseball cards as a kid or traded baseball, maybe you still do, maybe you still collect.
Speaker 3:Everything that you learned about trading cards is how I want you to think about concessions, right. So if I have a really high value rookie card for something, I'm not just going to give you that high value rookie card for nothing. In return, I may want half of your collection for that plus a few other things. So you've got to know what you have to be able to get something of equal or greater value in return.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great way of looking at it and you have to know what your baseball cards or your diamonds are in your, in your proposal. I wanted to hit a comment here real quick from Jason. He was talking about you know, we were talking about operating across the spectrum, but he says everyone will have a preference where they like to operate. Be ready to get out of your comfort zone.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's to me is a. There's a lot, a lot in that statement, because I think that you know, bring our Carson, like you were bringing up win-win. I think some of us probably feel more comfortable in that sort of environment. How do you prepare mark to, especially if you don't know exactly what zone you're going to get into? It's how to stay comfortable and and basically in control.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it comes down to you being willing to practice being uncomfortable, which, unfortunately, is uncomfortable. So whenever you get into situations where you know you should be asking for more in certain situations, forcing yourself to do that is really critical. And I mean in Every aspect of your life, in the grocery store, in the liquor store, in the coffee shop, on travel, on hotels Everything always asking for more, always asking for a better deal. That's absolutely critical, because even when your ego is on the line and the exercise that we give to a lot of folks is to Ask for a deal at a coffee shop or the grocery store when they're at checkout, it's you know you're gonna get a no, right like you're not gonna go to Costco and ask for a 15% discount and get a yes. The immediate answer is gonna be no.
Speaker 3:But it's not about getting the deal. It's about dealing with the discomfort of Knowing that the no is coming, so that you get comfortable with dealing with that discomfort. And there's gonna be Discomfort in a number of different styles of negotiation that you see from the counterparty. Now the advice that we give to everyone in our training is you're not allowed to have a style. Style is irrelevant until you get the fundamentals down. Once you've got the fundamentals down of planning and preparation and strategy in some tactics, then you can start to determine what your style is. But for you to say, oh, I have a style is Is insane because you're not there yet.
Speaker 5:So first learn as much as you can get the strategy down, then figure out what your style is and your style, and having a style or being able to even Use a style might also depend on who's on the other side in the style they're using, wouldn't?
Speaker 3:it? Yeah, absolutely, because who you negotiate with may be completely different to you and you may need to adjust. You may need to be adaptable, right? Bruce Lee said be like water.
Speaker 2:Well done, carson. Are you jealous? I feel a movie reference coming here.
Speaker 4:I got one brewing like we'll give it a moment. I know I love this, actually know this might be the perfect moment actually, now that you mentioned it. So I've got a few key pillars of negotiation strategy and tactics. And you know, number one, like really understanding all the Deal stakeholders and what they want out of it, and even the hidden ones, like the man behind the curtain, the Wizard of Oz. Right, you got to make sure that you know. You know there's gonna be some Moment in time and the negotiation when some heavy hitter is going to come in and make another ask of you. So be ready so that that doesn't feel like a pound of flesh.
Speaker 4:Read the room and also know their process. Don't get stung by a gotcha or an aha where there's like a threshold by which things go to the board. Don't devalue your product or your offering or your service in the process. That is exactly what is at the heart of mark statement about don't give in immediately to the discount. It's such an easy muscle, you know. Just giving the farm away. That is pointless and a devalues what you bring.
Speaker 4:Find a friendly in the organization. I can't tell you how many deals I've negotiated where I found some influencer in the organization who would arm me with what I needed in order to be successful Negotiate in the deal. I remember a multi-million dollar deal that I negotiated a few years back, or literally every night I was on the phone after dinner talking to this friendly. It's like we were reading each other the news from the day and it's like, oh, you need to do this with this person and say this to this person. This person's on their way out, so they don't care, find a friendly. I can make all the difference in the world.
Speaker 4:Recap the full value that has been brought. I mean, you may have put somebody on an airline to go travel six months ago leading up to this Pilots and this proof of concept. Every step you've made up to this point has had value. Value is not a moment in time, it's a journey. So you've got to really make sure you're building that the whole time. And then, lastly, being creative and willing to make bold asks Internally and with the customer. But when I think about Negotiation and influence, I keep going back to this movie that I saw when I was a kid and that was 12 Angry Men. 12 Angry Men, for me, was a masterclass in Negotiation because it showed how people with very different perspectives can be swayed through effective Communication and the artful presentation of evidence over time. It's a timeless exploration of human psychology Group dynamics and the intricate interplay of negotiation and influence and decision-making. If you haven't seen it, watch it today.
Speaker 2:Where can you see that? Is that a Netflix movie?
Speaker 4:I think I saw it on prime.
Speaker 2:All right, what was that? Again? I got to write that one down.
Speaker 5:I think we're doing years no classic.
Speaker 4:It's a class.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's. It's funny, mark. I'm sitting here thinking about what you were talking about. I have a good friend who's a lawyer a good lawyer and he's embarrassing to go out to dinner with because he wants to negotiate everything with the Server and the restaurant and what he's eating and whatever. Sounds like my guy, yeah. But now now, now I understand why he does that, right and.
Speaker 3:I think you're your practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and your point. You know, we don't a lot of us don't want conflict, right, we don't want to have the conflict and that makes us uncomfortable and the people saying no, or even the person. Like you know, I, this lawyer, we go to a restaurant. A lot of times a server just like looks at him like who are you, you know that kind of stuff. But you got to be okay with that, you got to be willing to go through that and not feel like, oh they're, you know I'm a bad person or whatever. So I I think that's a huge, huge point that you're bringing up there.
Speaker 5:I think there's some wisdom, though. Sorry, mark.
Speaker 3:No, the the value of that is just realizing how much you've lost out on like. When you actually start to get deals on things, you'll realize how much you've been overpaying on for a really long time, and that's gonna make you even more mad and then you're gonna start to ask for deals everywhere. The interesting thing that I said to someone the other day and it's just because we place these like weird social taboos on things, right, like the comparison I made to someone the other day was what is the percentage margin on a brand new car? It's tiny, it's like less than 15%, I think, something like that. Right, but the the margins on groceries are actually greater than the margins on a new car. But you would have no problem whatsoever asking for a deal on a new car, but you have issues asking for a deal on a coffee, and the margins on coffee are insane, right. And so there's we've placed these weird social taboos on asking for a deal. They really shouldn't be.
Speaker 5:I do. I do think there's wisdom, though and maybe not doing so that negotiation with people that are handling your food at a restaurant. I Love other, lots of other playgrounds to try to do it at the end.
Speaker 2:So, mark, let's talk a little bit about, okay, what are you know, if someone was gonna come into this maybe they're new or relatively, you know, I haven't really come up with their negotiation strategy, kind of what tools, what's the process? I, you know Carson you mentioned in his book was kind of a very clear, clear for me to say clear cut process on it. What would you recommend?
Speaker 3:I mean we go through all nine steps in the book. The book is fundamentally about that. It's about getting ready for your negotiation. Everything from how do you start thinking about the negotiation to how do you get ready for your first day Going into a commercial negotiation Everything is involved in the book.
Speaker 3:One such thing that I'll give you right now and the vast majority of people don't do it this way, which is always shocking to me is first know what it is that you actually want to get out of the deal. The vast majority of sales people that I speak to whenever I say, well, what do you want to get out of this? They say, well, I want a good deal. And to which my response is Okay, congratulations, right, like, so does everyone. That actually doesn't mean anything. So what I'm actually trying to ask you is what does a good deal mean for you? And they're like well, I want to make money. I was like okay, cool, let's write that down. Make money. What else do you want to get? Well, I guess I want to reduce risk. Okay, well, let's write that down too. I want to improve communication? Well, let's write that down. And so now those become really good, big, aspirational goals, but aspirational goals on their own don't mean anything. It would be like someone saying on January 1st oh, I want to lose weight. Okay, that's a good aspirational goal, good for you, but what are you going to do to lose weight? So if the goal is to make more money, or if the goal is to reduce risk or improve communication or improve the Relationship, or whatever the aspirational goals are, then what are you I'm going to actually negotiate into the deal in Order for the that thing to happen? So, let's say your goal is to improve communication with a client, then you know, are you gonna negotiate in specific reporting periods, specific meeting times, quarterly business reviews, those kinds of things like what are you going to actually do to ensure that a good relationship Happens? I'll give you another analogy.
Speaker 3:I was having a conversation With someone the other day that was having a really difficult time in their mallet marriage and they said well, you know, my partner wants better communication and I want better communication. But we can't figure it out. And I said look, imagine this. Imagine if you came to the table with your partner and you both agreed hey, we need to improve our communication. And the partner said, yeah, absolutely, we absolutely need to improve our communication and we're like, okay, well, let's do that.
Speaker 3:We collectively think this is a really important thing. We want to do this, we're gonna work on this, you're gonna work on it, I'm gonna work on it, and we're gonna leave the table and we're gonna feel good about this and they're like, yeah, that's a great idea. And so they walk away and they're feeling good about it. Right on the inside they're like, wow, we really accomplished something. Today. We both told that each other that we're gonna work on our communication and then, six months later, they're getting a divorce. What happened? Well, both parties agreed that communication was an issue, but neither one of them talked about what communication actually means To them, what they're gonna do to improve those things and how they're gonna do it. That's what I mean by breaking down the aspirational goal, and so many people don't even think about it.
Speaker 4:Got a quick comment. So and a question. You know, obviously this show is called Social Selling 2.0. And let me tell you the power that we have now to have information at our fingertips, to research research the person that you're negotiating with or the people that are stakeholders. You know I've gone so far as to go out to the LinkedIn profile where the person I was negotiating with made a comment in their bio about how proud they were of negotiating tough deals. So you know you're getting yourself into a whirlwind with this person, like, arm yourself with these types of things.
Speaker 4:The other thing I want to touch on is AI, and you know AI is changing everything. Right, I think there's a lot that AI is going to bring to the negotiation process and the way that we can predict things or quickly analyze data. But I want to get your thoughts on this, mark, and I want to make a quick passing comment around. You know we had Amar Preet on before from Humantic AI, actually used Humantic AI very diligently with a deal where a customer see, a C level would not give me the time of day and he was actually ticked off at our organization because he felt like he should be invited to do more stuff with us, and you know I used to be one of those people that I would write these big, long, articulate emails and pat myself on the back because it sounded great, right, but the reality is that's not going to resonate with a lot of people, and I would use Humantic to write these very.
Speaker 4:You know, my old boss used to tell me be brief, be brilliant, be gone, and I would write these very quick, hit things that were geared toward the value that I was trying to bring. He just wanted to feel the love, and so I kept throwing these opportunities over and over to him. It was things that I was learning, but I was using AI in order to really enhance that part of the process, so know how you can do your research. Mark, you've obviously been in this game for a long time. How are you seeing AI changing the negotiation process?
Speaker 3:It is already way ahead of where people think it is like way ahead. There are negotiation technologies now that are completely automated. I keep calling them out in examples, but one such organization is an organization called Pactim. That is basically a negotiation AI. It's a bot that negotiates on behalf of a person about a particular thing. And so let's just say, for example, you were selling to Walmart and you were selling toilet paper for all of their stores. Let's just say, this bot would negotiate with you for toilet paper for all of their stores and it would come to a deal and you would feel good about it. But you probably would never even know that you were dealing with a bot. You would think, because of the conversational nature of it, because of how smooth and how efficient it is, you would probably think that it was a human. The reality is that it was most likely artificial intelligence.
Speaker 3:Now, the interesting thing about artificial intelligence with negotiation is that we're not there yet in terms of complex deals. So if you think of complex services, complex machinery, complex software, those kinds of things, we're not there yet. But tactical sort of things like paper pens, toilet paper, shopping carts, those kinds of things that have very clear and defined specifications. You know exactly what it is you're buying. There's no real proposal, it's kind of just a quote. That's there. They're already doing those negotiations.
Speaker 3:The powerful thing about AI and negotiations is that it has no human bias and it doesn't ever get deal fatigue, so it can negotiate consistently at scale way faster than you can. The interesting thing about the major difference that I see in AI and people negotiation is that people negotiate deals sequentially, so you'll do one deal and then you'll do the next deal and then the next deal, etc. Whereas and if you're really good, you might have a couple going on. Ai doesn't have that problem. It can negotiate it parallel, which means it's got potentially thousands of deals that it is negotiating simultaneously at scale across multiple geographies and multiple time zone, always optimizing not only just for the singular deal but for all of the deals at the same time, which means that it might take a loss over here on toilet paper in geography A so that it can take a win over here in geography F for the same product.
Speaker 3:And that is really interesting about where it's going. Who knows where it's going to go? I guess is my answer where it's going to progress to, but it's already way ahead of where people think it is, and the easiest way you can get comfortable with that is just coming to terms with it, first of all, like it's here and it's being used right now, but also to try and ramp up as much of your education on negotiation as you can so that if you do run across a bot at some point in time that you have to negotiate with you, at least know how to handle yourself.
Speaker 2:What do you think, mark? I've heard a lot about the Walmart. I think a lot of those AI bots. They're very intelligent because they know all the gross margins. They have way more data at their disposal, so to speak, than the average person does, and they can basically lead you down a path, as you said, that you think is really good, but behind the scenes, they know they're maximizing the margins and maximizing the results of the deal. Do you see, though, as we move forward as you said, like with complex software deals you see companies that would say, hey, you need to start the negotiation with this procurement bot, so to speak, and almost put that. You see that happening over time, that companies will kind of I think it'll be I behind the bot a little bit I guess.
Speaker 3:I think it'll be assisted, but I don't think it'll be fully automated on complex deals for a while, just because I think there's so many moving parts that are completely unknown in the negotiation. That's why I think it will take a while on complex deals, because there are so many unknowns and there's always new. Like any kind of enterprise deal, there's always new information, there's always new stakeholders, there's always new demands, there's always new scope and there's always moving pieces to it. And I don't know that that can be known because there's so much information that you have to get from all of the different multiple stakeholder groups. So where it goes on complex deals, lord only knows. There'll be assistance on complex deals, no question, and people are already using AI to assist them on deals right now. If it becomes fully automated, I'd not within the next three to five years, from what I can see.
Speaker 2:Makes total sense, all right. Well, as we wrap up here, what would be if there was just one thing right that you could leave with and I know read your book is number one. But aside from read your book, what would be Just sort of one thing to leave with people as, hey, here's something you can do tomorrow to be a better negotiator, and and what that can actually do for you as it relates to you know, your role in sales.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the first thing that you need to really figure out and the really the only thing that you need to figure out when You're starting to learn how to negotiate well, is first figure out what it is you want from your negotiation. That's the single most important thing. Get really crystal clear about that and then put yourself in the shoes of whomever You're negotiating with to say, okay, well, what does this person want from the negotiation, who are they representing and what do they want from the negotiation? If you could just do those two things, you're you've already done more than most people will ever do to plan for their negotiations. So just start there.
Speaker 2:And not just go in.
Speaker 3:I want to close a deal right, yeah, that doesn't make any sense, obviously we want to close a deal right and start haggling with your grocery store.
Speaker 2:Correct or your coffee shop or your restaurants, wherever you go. I like it.
Speaker 3:Start with coffee right. Starbucks makes a lot of money, don't feel bad for them.
Speaker 2:So, carson Brandon, any final questions before we wrap up and start enjoying our Thanksgiving weekend?
Speaker 5:Now, I thought this was great mark. Thank you so much for for coming on today.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you so much for having me guys, I really really appreciate it. I love having the lens of somebody that spent a career in procurement and I think you know, I.
Speaker 4:Like to say this a lot sales leadership Sets the tone for the culture and the training and I think a lot of times we walk into a Negotiation with this preconceived notion of what it's supposed to be. And if somebody's never shown you how to negotiate a deal, you're not gonna know and you're gonna go in with these preconceived notions that I just have to get the deal done Because I'm under the gun to get it done. Or, you know, if it takes this discount to get the deal done, I'll give it to him because I just really want to get the deal done. It doesn't work like that. You know you've got to be a good steward of your business and you've got to make sure that you stand proud on the prices that are set and the product and service and the value that you're bringing to bear. And you know the person on the other side is a person.
Speaker 4:I take some solace in the fact that we're not at a point yet we're. Two big companies are gonna just let their bots go at it together, right, that's hopefully far, far, far, far far into the never-never-gonna-happen future. So it's it's people to people, it's person to person. So really understanding that person on the other side and the people on the other side know your parameters, know your playing field, know how you can best deliver Something where it's as close to a win as everybody can get. So great stuff. Mark and definitely check out the book. I know there were multiple times in the chat where the question came up. What is the name of the book? It is nine secrets to win deals and influence stakeholders. A field guide to be to be negotiations. That's how I really guys.
Speaker 2:And what I really like to just one line. You know, carson and Brandon remember Mike Weinberg a couple weeks ago talking about you know, sometimes, you know, especially in small companies, founders can have resentment, so to speak, on how much money they're paying out in sales. I think what we talked about today really hammers home that. What a sales, what the responsibility of a salesperson is. It's not just to go here's my product, but to actually carry it through and get not just a deal but the right deal for the company. And I think everything we talked about today it allows you to actually not close just close deals, but close quality deals. And I think we see so many deals that are, let's face it, they're shitty deals. Right, they're shitty deals, but you know there's VC funding or whatever, so it's okay that they spent $10 to get a dollar deal. So it kind of I think.
Speaker 5:I think next time too, may we have more come back. And you know, I'd like to address what is it? Because we you know our shows on social selling. What are some of the things that we can do in the social channels that help us and give us a Stronger stance once we get there? I mean, it's it's brand, it's the brand value. But hey, you know, if your CEO is Thriving and consistent and social, they have a presence, they have a voice, they're engaging with lots of other C-suite how does that help you when you get to the negotiation table, when they're sitting there going? We really want to be a part of this with this company, versus we don't know your CEO or we know who they are, we can look at, you know this type of stuff that we don't see them, they're not active, and I think that's something and maybe not it Totally at the enterprise level, because that should be included. But as we get into smaller companies, I think those are really key, important variables that Leadership or sales people don't even think about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree with you. I had one comment on. That is just for anyone listening. I mean, you know this, listening to this show, you know this, seeing Carson and doing what he's doing and what these guys are doing. The more that you can develop your personal brand, the easier it is for you to have conversations. It's, it's just way easier, way easier. Like when I go up against someone who's a virtual unknown in the negotiation space and we're completing, we're competing with each other for a contract, I'm almost always gonna get chosen because people know who I am. And that's not to brag, that's just to tell you what the power of Personal branding is. So, yep, I mean, you've, you watch the show, so so do those things.
Speaker 4:But that's also a catch 22 because I guarantee you there's been some folks in procurement and others that have seen that I've written books on sales and I'm sure they didn't take it easy on me and the negotiation.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Hey, just want, as we wrap up here, one of the kind of touch I think Cameron's comment here as good as figure out their motivation Plus, ascertain their breaking point, their budget and so forth, and then start high to leave room for negotiations.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I like that you know, really understanding the motivation is key and you know, look, not all of them, we're gonna share their budget with you. But if you know, like I've literally had deals where I've said, look, look, bottom line it for me, where do you have to be? And doesn't mean you've got to meet that number, but if they will share that number with you or some detail that they have to have in the deal, and you can deliver that and also get yours, people win. That's. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, thank you again, mark appreciate it. Thanks everybody for all the great comments and feedback. Here in the US it's Thanksgiving tomorrow for the rest of the weekend, so happy Thanksgiving to everybody, and We've got a nutsome awesome people coming up Brandon and Carson as we round out the yeah, we got.
Speaker 5:We got Matt Dixon coming up next week.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that, oh, wow.
Speaker 5:You know I've been. I've been reading this again. I've been preparing for that.
Speaker 3:I have lots of questions here, he was very kind, like Carson wrote a really nice blurb for me for my book, so he's a great guy. I'm a big fan of his work.
Speaker 2:All right, well, be sure to be here next week. All right, thanks again everyone. Carson, want to wrap us up.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I just want to say, in the spirit of Thanksgiving, I'm thankful for you guys and I'm thankful for everybody. Watching Social selling 2.0 has been an amazing journey and until next time, happy social selling.
Speaker 2:Thanks everyone. Hey, tom Burton here and I wanted to personally thank you for listening or watching today's episode of social selling 2.0. If you enjoyed or found value in today's show, please share with your friends and colleagues. Also, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast outlet. And please also subscribe to our YouTube channel and join our free online community at socialselling2zerocom. There you'll get free access to the latest social selling resources, training sessions, webinars and can collaborate with other social selling professions. Thank you again for listening and I look forward to seeing you in our next episode.